Thanks so much for your reply — both heart-felt and thoughtful. I know that many, like the family of your friend, have been much more directly impacted than I have been. I’ve never been directly associated with IHOPKC but have had many friends there over the years.
As I mentioned in the article, all of these things are cause for tears and weeping and must be. I know they have been personally and for me and for many others.
The aim of the article was to consider God’s ways in working with human beings. He puts his grace in broken vessels. And when we sin, We do real harm to one another and to God’s glory.
However, when God’s Justice enters in a gross sin is dealt with (as in this case), there is a tendency to overcorrect, and lose the good things God intends for us to keep.
My hope is that those involved in the global prayer movement will be strengthened in their devotion to Jesus even in the midst of this massive “stumbling block” that has come. Our Lord is just and we can be assured that His Justice and mercy will have their perfect expression for all involved.
But at the end of the day, Jesus is still worthy of non stop worship and prayer. I want to see that increase in the earth.
I want to make a brief statement regarding Jonathan Friz’s recent article “Don’t Overcorrect.” We knew the topic of the Mike Bickle scandal was controversial, but we did not expect this article to reach such a large audience, especially so many people who are unfamiliar with our ministry. This is very unusual for us. We have received a lot of positive feedback, but there have also seen quite a few negative comments as well.
It is important to understand that Jonathan and I have never been a part of IHOPKC and have never had a relationship with Mike Bickle, though we have both been inspired by the ministry over the years. Like Jonathan and I, most of our Presence Pioneers audience is also not directly involved in IHOPKC. The core community of those who follow us are worshipers, intercessors and leaders from across America and the nations who are passionate about worship, prayer, revival and missions. They are “presence pioneers” who are hosting God’s presence in their cities by serving in prayer and worship ministries in their local context.
Our aim with the article was to serve and encourage those who follow our ministry, not to give any direction to those who have been directly involved in IHOPKC or the Mike Bickle scandal. We do not presume to be the ones who could or should speak into that situation directly.
In a broad sense, the abusive leadership being exposed in many sectors of the broader American Church should cause us all to evaluate our own lives and ministries with humility, sobriety and repentance. I have spoken into this in previous podcast episodes this year:
Jonathan and I actually have some disagreements about how we should consider Mike Bickle’s teachings and the IHOPKC prophetic history in light of the misconduct that has been uncovered. We discussed these differences before the article was published, but we agreed to publish his article, as we thought it would be helpful for the community that follows Presence Pioneers. This has proven true, as our subscribers have given us overwhelmingly positive feedback.
Before we released the article, Jonathan and I had already planned to do a podcast episode together to further discuss these topics, including our disagreements. We thought that wrestling through these issues as friends might be helpful for others who are wrestling through similar questions at this time. That podcast recording will happen on Monday, August 5. Our paid subscribers can watch and interact live with us, and the episode will be released publicly at a later date. I hope that podcast episode brings further clarity, encouragement and wisdom to those who are pursuing God’s kingdom through worship, prayer and missions.
Good word Jonathan! God works through sinners saved by His grace and mercy. When we put our trust in man we can be disappointed. Jesus knew the heart of man was bent toward evil. He did not put His trust in man but in Our Heavenly Father. Only God is good. My hope and trust is in Him. I am grateful for those who hear and obey but God is my source.
Thanks for your response. I’ll engage in some good faith debate.
Paul’s reasoning in Romans 11:29 is from a general principle to a specific case (Israel), so I don’t think it’s taking it out of context to “re-expand” to the general principle. It’s also hard to say that principle “doesn’t apply to the church in any way” just because Paul applies it to Israel here.
In terms of the fruit of Mike’s life I think there’s been a lot of good fruit as well including important elements of Godly character that were evident to many who walked closely with him and associated with him more broadly. This pattern of hidden sin though created a significant stumbling block that has now come to the surface. I don’t think Mike is a clear-cut “wolf” according to Jesus’ definition.
In terms of 24/7 Prayer and a Biblical defense of it, you can read pretty much all of our posts within Presence Pioneers, especially our most recent one from Dick Eastman.
Appreciate Matthew’s note here. We’ve had quite a bit of positive and negative feedback on this one. I’m looking forward to discussing this more with Matthew in our upcoming podcast.
Just to give an encouragement: After seeking God for a few month, at the end of 1999 he spoke to me about starting a hop in the spirit of Amos 9,11. Back then I knew almost nothing about 24/7. I studied the scriptures and church history and in 2001 started the first hop-ministry in Germany. I am still in leadership and the hop is a blessing right in the center of the city of Freiburg. Rainer
That’s amazing Rainer! It is encouraging. Together, so many people have a similar testimony. How can we see this as anything other than the working of the Spirit?
I am considering what you wrote and appreciate your thoughtfulness. I like what you said about “over correcting” and can relate to the analogy of a person who doesn’t discipline his children much due to their own personal experience growing up. Thank you. I also say, “but for the grace of God, there go I” several times a day! My goodness! If my sins of 35-years ago were known? I can’t imagine I’d be still breathing! This attitude helps me to pity. But I wanted to make a suggestion to you based on this paragraph: “Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Mike, and others associated with the Kansas City Prophets struggled with sexual immorality and other serious sins. They taught and warned against sexual immorality, but were themselves ensnared by it. They are not the only church leaders to stumble in this way. And yet, God also gave them powerful prophetic experiences, many of which have tangibly come to pass.”
What you fail to mention is obvious to me: every “struggling” man you’ve mentioned “struggled” with someone else’s soul.😢 An innocent boy, a college student, a woman on the worship team, a child!!!! Weep for them today, I beg you. It’s not a “Struggle” with pornography or Paper Dolls! One of the “prophets” on your list contributed to the suicide death of a friend’s son 😢😢by convincing his parents to “cover up” the ministry leadership’s crimes. Oh God, almighty, please teach us to call sin sin, and not a whitewashed “struggle.” Furthermore, pornography is not a victimless crime! It’s not a “struggle” for pastors, it’s the devil himself , the enemy of our souls coming after us incessantly. Remember, self-control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit—the real one Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. No, Jonathan. If they had known the Holy Spirit and if they had had a friend like Nathan, they’d have been given a way out. Look away from “Honor Code” and start snatching your brother from the flames. 🔥 he’s not the only casualty 😢
Thanks for your reply. I’ll engage in some good faith debate with you here.
Romans 11:29 is about natural Israel clearly. However, since Paul is reasoning from the general to the specific, it’s no error to “regeneralize” the principle. Scripture does this all the time. It is an error, I believe, to say this principle narrowly applies to Israel.
In terms of the “bad fruit” I think that on the contrary, many people bore witness to the fruit of good and Godly character from Mike over many years which existed side by side. I don’t think we can cast him into the “false prophet” category of Matthew 7 unless we also want to cast many others there, including many Biblical characters. This hidden sin, however, eventually emerged as a stumbling block and is having its impact and is causing many to stumble.
In terms of 24/7 prayer, check out most of our Presence Pioneers articles or just the most recent from Dick Eastman. I think there are compelling, Biblical reasons to pursue a continual, night and day worship and prayer rhythm aside from anything Mike has done or said.
Thanks Lynda. Thankfully, God is still working through sinners. Lord have mercy on us!
Hi Gina,
Thanks so much for your reply — both heart-felt and thoughtful. I know that many, like the family of your friend, have been much more directly impacted than I have been. I’ve never been directly associated with IHOPKC but have had many friends there over the years.
As I mentioned in the article, all of these things are cause for tears and weeping and must be. I know they have been personally and for me and for many others.
The aim of the article was to consider God’s ways in working with human beings. He puts his grace in broken vessels. And when we sin, We do real harm to one another and to God’s glory.
However, when God’s Justice enters in a gross sin is dealt with (as in this case), there is a tendency to overcorrect, and lose the good things God intends for us to keep.
My hope is that those involved in the global prayer movement will be strengthened in their devotion to Jesus even in the midst of this massive “stumbling block” that has come. Our Lord is just and we can be assured that His Justice and mercy will have their perfect expression for all involved.
But at the end of the day, Jesus is still worthy of non stop worship and prayer. I want to see that increase in the earth.
May the love and mercy of the Lord be with you
I want to make a brief statement regarding Jonathan Friz’s recent article “Don’t Overcorrect.” We knew the topic of the Mike Bickle scandal was controversial, but we did not expect this article to reach such a large audience, especially so many people who are unfamiliar with our ministry. This is very unusual for us. We have received a lot of positive feedback, but there have also seen quite a few negative comments as well.
It is important to understand that Jonathan and I have never been a part of IHOPKC and have never had a relationship with Mike Bickle, though we have both been inspired by the ministry over the years. Like Jonathan and I, most of our Presence Pioneers audience is also not directly involved in IHOPKC. The core community of those who follow us are worshipers, intercessors and leaders from across America and the nations who are passionate about worship, prayer, revival and missions. They are “presence pioneers” who are hosting God’s presence in their cities by serving in prayer and worship ministries in their local context.
Our aim with the article was to serve and encourage those who follow our ministry, not to give any direction to those who have been directly involved in IHOPKC or the Mike Bickle scandal. We do not presume to be the ones who could or should speak into that situation directly.
In a broad sense, the abusive leadership being exposed in many sectors of the broader American Church should cause us all to evaluate our own lives and ministries with humility, sobriety and repentance. I have spoken into this in previous podcast episodes this year:
https://media.presencepioneers.org/p/spiritual-pride-in-prayer-and-missions
Jonathan and I actually have some disagreements about how we should consider Mike Bickle’s teachings and the IHOPKC prophetic history in light of the misconduct that has been uncovered. We discussed these differences before the article was published, but we agreed to publish his article, as we thought it would be helpful for the community that follows Presence Pioneers. This has proven true, as our subscribers have given us overwhelmingly positive feedback.
Before we released the article, Jonathan and I had already planned to do a podcast episode together to further discuss these topics, including our disagreements. We thought that wrestling through these issues as friends might be helpful for others who are wrestling through similar questions at this time. That podcast recording will happen on Monday, August 5. Our paid subscribers can watch and interact live with us, and the episode will be released publicly at a later date. I hope that podcast episode brings further clarity, encouragement and wisdom to those who are pursuing God’s kingdom through worship, prayer and missions.
Matthew Lilley,
Founder/Director
Presence Pioneers
Good word Jonathan! God works through sinners saved by His grace and mercy. When we put our trust in man we can be disappointed. Jesus knew the heart of man was bent toward evil. He did not put His trust in man but in Our Heavenly Father. Only God is good. My hope and trust is in Him. I am grateful for those who hear and obey but God is my source.
Hey Daryl,
Thanks for your response. I’ll engage in some good faith debate.
Paul’s reasoning in Romans 11:29 is from a general principle to a specific case (Israel), so I don’t think it’s taking it out of context to “re-expand” to the general principle. It’s also hard to say that principle “doesn’t apply to the church in any way” just because Paul applies it to Israel here.
In terms of the fruit of Mike’s life I think there’s been a lot of good fruit as well including important elements of Godly character that were evident to many who walked closely with him and associated with him more broadly. This pattern of hidden sin though created a significant stumbling block that has now come to the surface. I don’t think Mike is a clear-cut “wolf” according to Jesus’ definition.
In terms of 24/7 Prayer and a Biblical defense of it, you can read pretty much all of our posts within Presence Pioneers, especially our most recent one from Dick Eastman.
Appreciate Matthew’s note here. We’ve had quite a bit of positive and negative feedback on this one. I’m looking forward to discussing this more with Matthew in our upcoming podcast.
This was full of wisdom Jonathan! Thank you for this.
Hi Jonathan.
Just to give an encouragement: After seeking God for a few month, at the end of 1999 he spoke to me about starting a hop in the spirit of Amos 9,11. Back then I knew almost nothing about 24/7. I studied the scriptures and church history and in 2001 started the first hop-ministry in Germany. I am still in leadership and the hop is a blessing right in the center of the city of Freiburg. Rainer
That’s amazing Rainer! It is encouraging. Together, so many people have a similar testimony. How can we see this as anything other than the working of the Spirit?
I am considering what you wrote and appreciate your thoughtfulness. I like what you said about “over correcting” and can relate to the analogy of a person who doesn’t discipline his children much due to their own personal experience growing up. Thank you. I also say, “but for the grace of God, there go I” several times a day! My goodness! If my sins of 35-years ago were known? I can’t imagine I’d be still breathing! This attitude helps me to pity. But I wanted to make a suggestion to you based on this paragraph: “Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Mike, and others associated with the Kansas City Prophets struggled with sexual immorality and other serious sins. They taught and warned against sexual immorality, but were themselves ensnared by it. They are not the only church leaders to stumble in this way. And yet, God also gave them powerful prophetic experiences, many of which have tangibly come to pass.”
What you fail to mention is obvious to me: every “struggling” man you’ve mentioned “struggled” with someone else’s soul.😢 An innocent boy, a college student, a woman on the worship team, a child!!!! Weep for them today, I beg you. It’s not a “Struggle” with pornography or Paper Dolls! One of the “prophets” on your list contributed to the suicide death of a friend’s son 😢😢by convincing his parents to “cover up” the ministry leadership’s crimes. Oh God, almighty, please teach us to call sin sin, and not a whitewashed “struggle.” Furthermore, pornography is not a victimless crime! It’s not a “struggle” for pastors, it’s the devil himself , the enemy of our souls coming after us incessantly. Remember, self-control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit—the real one Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. No, Jonathan. If they had known the Holy Spirit and if they had had a friend like Nathan, they’d have been given a way out. Look away from “Honor Code” and start snatching your brother from the flames. 🔥 he’s not the only casualty 😢
Yes please send me a link where I can read what you’ve written on 24/7 prayer. I am detoxing from IHOP. And feel it would be very helpful.
Hi Daryl,
Thanks for your reply. I’ll engage in some good faith debate with you here.
Romans 11:29 is about natural Israel clearly. However, since Paul is reasoning from the general to the specific, it’s no error to “regeneralize” the principle. Scripture does this all the time. It is an error, I believe, to say this principle narrowly applies to Israel.
In terms of the “bad fruit” I think that on the contrary, many people bore witness to the fruit of good and Godly character from Mike over many years which existed side by side. I don’t think we can cast him into the “false prophet” category of Matthew 7 unless we also want to cast many others there, including many Biblical characters. This hidden sin, however, eventually emerged as a stumbling block and is having its impact and is causing many to stumble.
In terms of 24/7 prayer, check out most of our Presence Pioneers articles or just the most recent from Dick Eastman. I think there are compelling, Biblical reasons to pursue a continual, night and day worship and prayer rhythm aside from anything Mike has done or said.