Thank you for sharIng your heart and spirit on this issue. It was presented in such a Godly manner. I have been blessed in knowing some of the interns who served in the early ‘20’s. They had such hunger for more of God and His presence. Many of them moved on into their own ministries as they followed the Lord’s leading and some of them have had old wounds reopened. Wounds that needed to be reopened to receive the Lord’s healing to make room for the fullness of God and the Pure joy the Lord provides. The fallen nature of man aways harms so much more then one realizes and the fall of major leadership creates such destruction. There have been many major spiritual leaders amongst us who were unable to continually process the level of anointing God entrusted them with. Perhaps, they become so enthralled in what God was doing through them, they allowed themselves to become to busy to maintain their personal relationships with God become non-exsistant and lost their sense of humility and integrity before the Lord and allowed their human weakness to take over. Whatever the reason there is much to be learned in how we maintain our personal relationship with God no matter what position the Lord calls us to lest we fall too. It is my prayer that all who have been harmed receive totally healing and the effect on righteous ministries is minimized. Time always reveals the spiritual foundations and position of a ministry. Bless you and the ministry God has called you to. It is greatly needed.
Thank You Matthew God bless you. Right before IHOP started I was at an event in Dallas where the with Mike asked me to go but I didn’t go. God is faithful!
Its purpose was to foreshadow a temple that’s not of this world, not built with men’s hands. It doesn’t need to be rebuilt or restored. Jesus brought it, and He said it’s finished. His kingdom is not of this world, but ego-driven, carnally minded, ambitious men are blind to it.
The American church, its leadership style, and its value system mirror American business. The good looking, well spoken, talented, outgoing, wealthy, intelligent, and most ambitious rise to prominence while the weak, ugly, traumatized, poor, weird, disfigured, diseased, and otherwise useless by worldly standards are disregarded, overlooked, and forgotten. There is little Love in the American Church. In its place there is a lot of self-serving, pseudo-spirituality. Many will go before Him in at the judgment and try to argue their case based upon sincere self-effort and will hear Him say ‘Depart’.
Instead of digging through the garbage can of failed American Christianity…in this case IHOP…looking for scraps of edible bread, we need to humble ourselves and repent of using formulaic models to attract people in large numbers. Go into the secret place to pray, He said. So why are we live streaming public prayer meetings on YouTube and wondering why it ended in disaster?
Sure, you can point to the “good” that has come out of certain practices. But I can also point you to the “good” that has come out of Mormonism, Catholicism, or any number of other ‘isms’ in egotistical human religion. Popular movements in American Christian culture are franchises…they’re just more ‘isms’. They will pass, just like all the movements that glorified men that have risen and fallen before. Meanwhile, His Kingdom is treasure hidden in a field waiting to be discovered by anyone wise enough to sell everything they have and go buy it. Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.
True religion is taking care of orphans and widows. How many books have been written about how to do that, in comparison to how many have been written and sold about how to tap in to supernatural satisfaction and blessing? We’re selfish, and most of what transpires in American Christian teaching, writing, and preaching, is an appeal to the listener/reader’s vanity and selfishness, because that’s where “success” as a Christian lies. If we have lots of customers…a wide road…then we must be doing it right. Billions and billions served, like McDonalds. God help us!!
I don't have time to respond to all of this. But just about the tabernacle of David, I've written a book on the topic that's available at https://davidstabernacle.com - in it I take some time to lay out the biblical foundations of what it was, is and will be. There's more to it than you realize!
I believe that too. So why emphasize the type? Why not emphasize the fulfillment?
…when Christ appeared as a High Priest of the good things to come [that is, true spiritual worship], He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not a part of this [material] creation.”
Hebrews 9:11 Amp
The tabernacle of God is unseen and not of this world, as said by Jesus. If you’ve ever watched any cult documentaries, the common threads are always divine revelation, world domination, and godlike essence. All three of those are present in the NAR and related “streams” such as IHOP. The most dangerous deceptions aren’t the things that are 180° opposite of truth. They’re the things that have just a little bit of error mixed in with what is otherwise true. And that’s also the case with placing emphasis on the type rather than the fulfillment.
I’m reminded of when Jesus told the Pharisees that the scriptures had no life, but that they testified of Him. It’s exactly the same thing when we stop at the type of David’s tabernacle in our practice of religion, rather than continuing on to the fulfillment, and then from there on to obedience to the sacrificial life He taught us to live if we want to be His followers. That means taking care of the poor, the sick, the weak, etc. and preaching the gospel to unreached people. Not accolades, speaking engagements, steady income, comfortable lifestyles, IRA’s, and the spiritual and emotional indulgence that goes on in most charismatic churches.
Church, Inc. has just taken American style capitalism and slapped a cross on it. It bears very little resemblance to what the early church looked like…the church that changed the entire world.
Do you know what it feels like to be wrong? I don’t mean the feeling of realizing that you’re wrong…I’m asking you if you know what it feels like when you’re wrong and you’re unaware. The answer is that it feels exactly the same way it feels when you’re right. That’s why we’re so easily deceived.
I’m not trying to troll you or be critical. I appreciate you engaging with me about this. I’m a part of the problem as much as anyone else, and I have been seeking the Lord for deep repentance about this issue for awhile, and trying to find my place in what to do about it. I’m actually at a church that embraces IHOP style prayer rooms and some NAR stuff because I believe it’s where the Lord wants me to be…as a silent intercessor. Maybe I’m just blowing off some steam. Please don’t take it personally, but please carefully consider what I’m trying to tell you.
I’ll consider your book, and I’m sincerely open to hearing from the Lord on this or anything else. But if you want to know if a tree is any good, look at its fruit.
I don’t like the fruit I see on the tree of American Christianity, Inc., which includes IHOP, NAR, or any of the other business models that are operating in place of “pure and undefiled religion”. Yes, there are good people in Church, Inc., and God does good things in spite of their error, but that doesn’t justify their error. So like I said, I’ll consider your book, but mainly because I’m interested in making myself better prepared to counter the error. As far as my walk with the Lord, I’m only interested in the Tabernacle of Jesus.
I so wish you could speak with some of us whose lives have been so affected & threshed in the process of this all - 😭- even to the splintering of family. There would be a different narrative, even different than the Firefly narrative.
Evangelical here who had a charismatic experience a few weeks ago and trying to find some footing!
Any recs on solid authors, resources, and teaching on the gifts and charismatic ministry/worship.
I knew Bickle was highly recommended but I’m not sure I wanna go devour all his stuff in light of the situation
Our PPM stuff - https://presencepioneers.org/store/
School of the Spirit by Lee Cummings
Surprised by the Power of the Spirit by Jack Deere
The God I Never Knew by Robert Morris (note that he also had a scandal)
For worship, books by Bob Sorge are great. Exploring Worship is his classic.
Thank you so much!
Thank you for sharIng your heart and spirit on this issue. It was presented in such a Godly manner. I have been blessed in knowing some of the interns who served in the early ‘20’s. They had such hunger for more of God and His presence. Many of them moved on into their own ministries as they followed the Lord’s leading and some of them have had old wounds reopened. Wounds that needed to be reopened to receive the Lord’s healing to make room for the fullness of God and the Pure joy the Lord provides. The fallen nature of man aways harms so much more then one realizes and the fall of major leadership creates such destruction. There have been many major spiritual leaders amongst us who were unable to continually process the level of anointing God entrusted them with. Perhaps, they become so enthralled in what God was doing through them, they allowed themselves to become to busy to maintain their personal relationships with God become non-exsistant and lost their sense of humility and integrity before the Lord and allowed their human weakness to take over. Whatever the reason there is much to be learned in how we maintain our personal relationship with God no matter what position the Lord calls us to lest we fall too. It is my prayer that all who have been harmed receive totally healing and the effect on righteous ministries is minimized. Time always reveals the spiritual foundations and position of a ministry. Bless you and the ministry God has called you to. It is greatly needed.
Thanks for adding your perspective!
Thank You Matthew God bless you. Right before IHOP started I was at an event in Dallas where the with Mike asked me to go but I didn’t go. God is faithful!
Wow!
“Don’t let the failings of the leadership of one prayer room discount the value of participating in and leading a prayer room in your region.”
Amen and Amen.
😀
The tabernacle of David was a type.
Its purpose was to foreshadow a temple that’s not of this world, not built with men’s hands. It doesn’t need to be rebuilt or restored. Jesus brought it, and He said it’s finished. His kingdom is not of this world, but ego-driven, carnally minded, ambitious men are blind to it.
The American church, its leadership style, and its value system mirror American business. The good looking, well spoken, talented, outgoing, wealthy, intelligent, and most ambitious rise to prominence while the weak, ugly, traumatized, poor, weird, disfigured, diseased, and otherwise useless by worldly standards are disregarded, overlooked, and forgotten. There is little Love in the American Church. In its place there is a lot of self-serving, pseudo-spirituality. Many will go before Him in at the judgment and try to argue their case based upon sincere self-effort and will hear Him say ‘Depart’.
Instead of digging through the garbage can of failed American Christianity…in this case IHOP…looking for scraps of edible bread, we need to humble ourselves and repent of using formulaic models to attract people in large numbers. Go into the secret place to pray, He said. So why are we live streaming public prayer meetings on YouTube and wondering why it ended in disaster?
Sure, you can point to the “good” that has come out of certain practices. But I can also point you to the “good” that has come out of Mormonism, Catholicism, or any number of other ‘isms’ in egotistical human religion. Popular movements in American Christian culture are franchises…they’re just more ‘isms’. They will pass, just like all the movements that glorified men that have risen and fallen before. Meanwhile, His Kingdom is treasure hidden in a field waiting to be discovered by anyone wise enough to sell everything they have and go buy it. Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.
True religion is taking care of orphans and widows. How many books have been written about how to do that, in comparison to how many have been written and sold about how to tap in to supernatural satisfaction and blessing? We’re selfish, and most of what transpires in American Christian teaching, writing, and preaching, is an appeal to the listener/reader’s vanity and selfishness, because that’s where “success” as a Christian lies. If we have lots of customers…a wide road…then we must be doing it right. Billions and billions served, like McDonalds. God help us!!
I don't have time to respond to all of this. But just about the tabernacle of David, I've written a book on the topic that's available at https://davidstabernacle.com - in it I take some time to lay out the biblical foundations of what it was, is and will be. There's more to it than you realize!
I believe that too. So why emphasize the type? Why not emphasize the fulfillment?
…when Christ appeared as a High Priest of the good things to come [that is, true spiritual worship], He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not a part of this [material] creation.”
Hebrews 9:11 Amp
The tabernacle of God is unseen and not of this world, as said by Jesus. If you’ve ever watched any cult documentaries, the common threads are always divine revelation, world domination, and godlike essence. All three of those are present in the NAR and related “streams” such as IHOP. The most dangerous deceptions aren’t the things that are 180° opposite of truth. They’re the things that have just a little bit of error mixed in with what is otherwise true. And that’s also the case with placing emphasis on the type rather than the fulfillment.
I’m reminded of when Jesus told the Pharisees that the scriptures had no life, but that they testified of Him. It’s exactly the same thing when we stop at the type of David’s tabernacle in our practice of religion, rather than continuing on to the fulfillment, and then from there on to obedience to the sacrificial life He taught us to live if we want to be His followers. That means taking care of the poor, the sick, the weak, etc. and preaching the gospel to unreached people. Not accolades, speaking engagements, steady income, comfortable lifestyles, IRA’s, and the spiritual and emotional indulgence that goes on in most charismatic churches.
Church, Inc. has just taken American style capitalism and slapped a cross on it. It bears very little resemblance to what the early church looked like…the church that changed the entire world.
Do you know what it feels like to be wrong? I don’t mean the feeling of realizing that you’re wrong…I’m asking you if you know what it feels like when you’re wrong and you’re unaware. The answer is that it feels exactly the same way it feels when you’re right. That’s why we’re so easily deceived.
I’m not trying to troll you or be critical. I appreciate you engaging with me about this. I’m a part of the problem as much as anyone else, and I have been seeking the Lord for deep repentance about this issue for awhile, and trying to find my place in what to do about it. I’m actually at a church that embraces IHOP style prayer rooms and some NAR stuff because I believe it’s where the Lord wants me to be…as a silent intercessor. Maybe I’m just blowing off some steam. Please don’t take it personally, but please carefully consider what I’m trying to tell you.
I’ll consider your book, and I’m sincerely open to hearing from the Lord on this or anything else. But if you want to know if a tree is any good, look at its fruit.
I don’t like the fruit I see on the tree of American Christianity, Inc., which includes IHOP, NAR, or any of the other business models that are operating in place of “pure and undefiled religion”. Yes, there are good people in Church, Inc., and God does good things in spite of their error, but that doesn’t justify their error. So like I said, I’ll consider your book, but mainly because I’m interested in making myself better prepared to counter the error. As far as my walk with the Lord, I’m only interested in the Tabernacle of Jesus.
I believe David's tabernacle is a type of "the Tabernacle of Jesus" as well (and it was also a historic tent in Jerusalem).
I so wish you could speak with some of us whose lives have been so affected & threshed in the process of this all - 😭- even to the splintering of family. There would be a different narrative, even different than the Firefly narrative.
I'm very sorry for the pain all of this has caused you
The tsunami affects have only begun.